[luatex] Vital RTL issues in LuaTeX

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي ح]

Dear Vafa,

On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:28:01 -0600, وفا خلیقی <vafakh9 at gmail.com> wrote:

>> This is not really accurate. Different arabic-script languages -- such  
>> as
>> arabic and farsi -- read numerals ltr with some differences between  
>> them.
>> But in classical arabic -- and I suspect classical persian as well --,
>> numbers really _were_ read rtl. Where we say
>
>
> not true for classical Persian. I am not sure about others. Keep in mind
> Persian is not Arabic.

now this is getting silly.

>> One Hundred Twenty Three
>>
>> in the old days they said
>>
>> Three and Twenty and One Hundred.

> We are talking about today.

even sillier...

>> These matters are not so clear cut.
>
>
> what do you mean?
>
>
>> Which is why, again, we have to distinguish sharply between engine and
>> macro issues. Your concerns are -- afaict -- macro implementation  
>> issues,
>> not engine issues.
>
>
>
> No my concern is that something simple as the numbers should be done
> correctly by deafult without further attempt.

FALSE. Because it's NOT a simple matter. Each language has its own rules,  
as you yourself pointed out!

> LuaTeX's claims to be the engine that supports Arabic, Right?

Let me make this clear one last time:

LuaTeX implements the minimum, necessary low-level hooks needed by the  
typesetting engine to handle Arabic-script. This is a necessary but not  
sufficient condition. The engine must be augmented by a macropackage that,  
presumably, will use the lua extensionality features present in luaTeX. So

Support for Arabic-script = luaTeX + macro-extensions.

Occam's Razor for LuaTeX: Anything that can conveniently be  
handled/configured at the macro-level -- using lua extensionality --, WILL  
be handled at the macropackage level. Period.

> My concers has not got anything to do anything with plain, LaTeX, ConTeXt
> macro programming.

maybe, but you don't seem to want to understand the luaTeX philosophy :-)

>> It's very important to keep this distinction in mind, because we all  
>> have
>> extremely limited and stretched-thin resources. So each of us needs to  
>> focus
>> where it counts. I certainly don't want to see, eg, Taco bothered with
>> non-engine issues at this point, because we have lots of other things  
>> to do.
>>
>>
>
> I do not think he cares at all.

Nonsense. You have not appreciated his points, or the luaTeX approach to  
things, that's all.

> My point eventually is something as basic and elementary as numbers  
> should
> be done correctly by default

by default in the macro extensions perhaps, but not the engine. That's  
simply not how we do things here.

> and if you guys want to ignore the issue, that
> is fine. But you can not change facts.

More silliness.

Not doing it YOUR way != Ignoring the issue

Once that is understood, we can move forward.

I'm sorry for sounding exasperated, but this long, time-consuming thread  
keeps going because this point is not getting across to you. Please try to  
understand this before hitting "reply".

My best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523