[latexrefman] This differs from word processing,

[Vincent Belaïche]

Hello,

I think that there are two concerns:

1) I was suggesting « instant rendering » with in mind that LaTeX is
also WYSIWYG, and is also a word processor (which is a synonym for « a
system for typesetting documents », which LaTeX is, as per (info
"(latex2e) Overview"). So where, say MSWords, differs, is that the
rendering is instant, you see it as you enter text. If you remove
« instant rendering » then you suggest that LaTeX is not a word
processor, which I don't agree with.

2) Yes, it sounds like « advocacy », some sort of sales pitch. I don't
think that we need to argue. about sort of « religious »
discussion. This is a *reference* manual, not a tutorial, not an
introductory text.  It sounds like advocacy because when you write
« where you are formatting text as you input it. Putting these off until
the end prevents a lot of fiddling with breaks … » you make some
assumption about how people are (mis)using a word processor, fiddling
with breaks while they are inputing text, and I don't like this, because
this sounds like blaming MSWord users for wrong-doings which they are
not necessarilly doing, just for the sake of advocating the superiority
of LaTeX. I think that it is better if we say that this sort of word
processor _encourages_ that sort of wrong doing, ie if we blame the SW,
not their users. That is the difference which I wanted to stress by
rewording.

So, taking into account that the common understanding is that LaTeX is
not a so-called word processor, and that « instant rendering » is not
meaningful, I propose the following even more explicit rewording:

A common workflow with LaTeX is to get a final version of the document
content before taking a final pass through and considering line breaks
(and page breaks). Most people do not consider LaTeX as a word
processor, because it does not show the output instantly. However
differing the output encourages the user to put off until the end
formatting adjustments, and thus it prevents a lot of fiddling with
breaks that will change anyway. Differing the output has other
advantages: it enables to make no compromise about the typesetting,
which ensures that what you see it exactly what you get, and it also
helps authors concentrate their mind on either writing or reading rather
than distract it by doing both a the same time.

Maybe the final sentence starting with « Differing the output has other
advantages  » is useless. This sounds also like advocacy. With Print
Preview you supposedly also have exactly what you get, but there is no
magics about it, this is also differed (I remember some long MSWord
documents, where the print preview takes even longer time that a LaTeX
compilation would do).


  V.

Le jeu. 2 sept. 2021 à 01:50, Hefferon, Jim S. <jhefferon at smcvt.edu> a écrit :
>
>
> Forgive me, I can only speak to the English, but there is not such a thing as "instant rendering" word processor; there is only just a word processor.
>
> If the concern is about sounding like advocacy, I could see changing from "you" to "an author."  Would that be a help?
>
> Jim
>
> ...........................................................
> Doesn’t it feel like the dystopian future we deserve? Like in a decade everyone will make their living by steering colorful blob-like creatures around to acquire coins in a virtual world, but ownership of the colorful blob-like virtual creatures will be concentrated among a hereditary elite of people who, like, bought Dogecoin in 2014, and in order to scrape together enough to live on you will need to indenture yourself to a member of that elite, steering their blob-like virtual creatures around to earn coins for them and getting a few crumbs for yourself. And you’ll work 16-hour days in the Smooth Love Potions mines just to feed your children, but every once in a while in a rare free moment you will stop and ask yourself “wait why do our overlords want all these Smooth Love Potions anyway?”  --Matt Levine
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Vincent Belaïche <vincent.belaiche at gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:02
> To: Hefferon, Jim S.
> Subject: Re: [latexrefman] This differs from word processing,
>
> ⚠ External Sender ⚠
>
>
> Thank you Jim for your feedback. In French too, most people would not
> call LaTeX a word processor (un traitement de text) just as they are
> so used to instant rendering processors.
>
> OK I think that if we want to make a point with such philosophical
> considerations, I had rather be more precise about what is really
> going on, mentally. Would you object if I reword it as follows (with
> your fixing the English), where added text is highlighted _like this_:
>
> A common workflow is to get a final version of the document content
> before taking a final pass through and considering line breaks (and page
> breaks).  This differs from _instant rendering_ word processors, where
> _the processor is_ formatting
> text as you input it, _and thus encourages people to do_ fiddling with
> breaks that will change anyway.  Putting these off until the end _not
> only_ prevents _that, but also helps authors concentrate their mind on
> either writing or reading rather than distract it by doing both a the
> same time._
>
> Le mer. 1 sept. 2021 à 12:51, Hefferon, Jim S. <jhefferon at smcvt.edu> a écrit :
> >
> > Sorry, busy around here.  Thank you for the prompt.
> >
> > For the context, here is the whole paragraph, in the section on Line Breaking.
> >
> > > A common workflow is to get a final version of the document content before taking a final pass through and considering line breaks (and page breaks). This differs from word processing, where you are formatting text as you input it. Putting these off until the end prevents a lot of fiddling with breaks that will change anyway.
> >
> > I think it is correct, as it stands, and that it makes a point that is worth making.  In LaTeX there are often last-pass changes that an author does.  This does, in my experience, differ from workflows of typical authors in, say, Word.  In addition, the concept of not formatting as you write is new to many people.  (I'll also mention that at least in English, a person would not refer to LaTeX as a word processor since it does not fold in the editing, the string-pushing.)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jim
> >
> > ...........................................................
> > Doesn’t it feel like the dystopian future we deserve? Like in a decade everyone will make their living by steering colorful blob-like creatures around to acquire coins in a virtual world, but ownership of the colorful blob-like virtual creatures will be concentrated among a hereditary elite of people who, like, bought Dogecoin in 2014, and in order to scrape together enough to live on you will need to indenture yourself to a member of that elite, steering their blob-like virtual creatures around to earn coins for them and getting a few crumbs for yourself. And you’ll work 16-hour days in the Smooth Love Potions mines just to feed your children, but every once in a while in a rare free moment you will stop and ask yourself “wait why do our overlords want all these Smooth Love Potions anyway?”  --Matt Levine
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: latexrefman <latexrefman-bounces+jhefferon=smcvt.edu at tug.org> on behalf of Vincent Belaïche <vincent.belaiche at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 6:24
> > To: latexrefman
> > Subject: Re: [latexrefman] This differs from word processing,
> >
> > ⚠ External Sender ⚠
> >
> >
> > Last notice : this sentance will be removed in my next commit, by tomorrow.
> >   V.
> >
> > Le lun. 23 août 2021 à 19:12, Vincent Belaïche
> > <vincent.belaiche at gmail.com> a écrit :
> > >
> > > Propagating r636 by Jim.
> > >
> > > I would like to remove the whole sentence « This differs from word
> > > processing, where you are formatting text as you input it. », added in
> > >  node « Line breaking » :
> > > * I don't think it has any added value about LaTeX
> > > * LaTeX is also a word processor, this document is a reference manual,
> > > not a sale pitch,
> > > * usually when you use so called WYSIWYG word processor you also do
> > > the same, adjusting the breaks in a final pass. A bigger concern is
> > > that these processors are not really WYSIWYG, though pretending to be
> > > instantly formatting : sometimes the paginated display differs from
> > > the print preview…
> > >
> > > Any objection against the removal ?
> > >   V.
> > >
> > >   V.
> >
> >