[tex-live] Fwd: So far.....expensive failure

gilberto dos santos alves gsavix at gmail.com
Fri Feb 15 04:09:49 CET 2013

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: gilberto dos santos alves <gsavix at gmail.com>
Date: 2013/2/15
Subject: Re: [tex-live] So far.....expensive failure
To: reinhard.kotucha at web.de

here in brazil because our web in many cities is not fast we use .iso file
basic in multi ways:
1-burn a dvd for those students that want
2-copy .iso file to pendrive (usb stick) and mount this using linux mount
with -loop option or using (example virtual clone drive on windows).
3-in classroom put 1 dvd media in dvd driver of server many times because
we do not have high speed internet in school and we do not have admin
privileges on server, but all we want that students make ad-hoc install
using local lan or wifi of class
4-allow students copy/paste *.iso file for use in virtualmachine
(virtualbox, vmware, qemu) running on windows or OS X or linux.
Please we need this .iso files.

2013/2/14 Reinhard Kotucha <reinhard.kotucha at web.de>

> On 2013-02-14 at 07:31:08 +0100, Denis Bitouzé wrote:
>  > Le jeudi 14/02/13 à 00h40,
>  > Reinhard Kotucha <reinhard.kotucha at web.de> a écrit :
>  >
>  > >  The point is that nobody needs the ISO image.
>  >
>  > I don't agree: I often give LaTeX courses in my University to
>  > simultaneously at least 20 students and I couldn't reasonably let
>  > them install TL through the network installer. Indeed:
>  >
>  >   * the network of our University couldn't support such a big
>  >     download simultaneously (and other users would be irate),
>  >
>  >   * this would cause much more traffic than downloading the TL ISO
>  >     once and providing it through either USB sticks.
>  >
>  > When the French TUG provides me the TL DVD (free of charge: many
>  > thanks to him!), I procure it but I still provide the ISO file for
>  > students who own a Netbook without any DVD drive.
> Hi Denis,
> maybe I misunderstand you, but do you really create a DVD for each
> student?  Sure, DVDs are cheap but I/O speed is very poor.
> I would expect that participants of a LaTeX course can install TeX
> Live simultaneously in a reasonable amount of time.  DVDs can be used
> but it takes a lot of time to prepare 20 DVDs.  Writing to a USB stick
> and installing from it is much faster, but USB sticks are much more
> expensive than DVDs.
> A good solution is to install a web server on a local machine and copy
> tlnet to it.  Then students can install from this machine
> simultaneously using the network installer as usual.  Traffic is only
> on your local network.  The advantage is that you don't have to
> prepare anything time consuming in advance.
> The requirements are small.  I can perform a usual TeX Live network
> installation directly from my Raspberry Pi.  You really don't need
> more.
> BTW, when I said
>  > >  The point is that nobody needs the ISO image.
> I was a little bit exaggerating (as usual).  Truth is that many people
> believe that they need it though there are much better solutions in
> most cases.  But what I'm really concerned about is that too many
> people download the ISO image and throw it away due to wrong
> expectations.
> The documentation at tug.org is absolutely correct and suggests to use
> the network installer.  The reason people download the ISO image might
> be twofold:
>   1. Using the network installer requires to read more instructions.
>      You have download the zip file, unzip it, move to the directory
>      containing the installer, and execute the installer.  This sounds
>      complicated.
>   2. Windows users expect that a software package comes as a single
>      file.  They assume that they can download a single file and click
>      on it in order to install the software.  Well, an ISO image isn't
>      a WinShield installer, but Windows users expect that something
>      useful happens if they click on the file.
> Thus, I suppose that many people download the ISO image because they
> believe that it's easier to use than the network installer.  The
> documentation at tug.org assumes that people know what an ISO image
> is.  However, if the usage of an ISO image is explained in detail
> (especially how to use it on Windows), I'm absolutely sure that people
> recognize that using the network installer is easier.
> When I suggested to remove the ISO image from CTAN, I didn't meant to
> make it inaccessible.  The idea was to move it to the archives when
> the test phase is over.  It's a bit problematic because if many people
> download the image, CTAN can redirect requests to mirrors, tug.org
> can't.  Hence it's not a good solution.
> Robin suggested to improve the documentation.  This is by far the best
> approach.  I think that if it's explained in detail what an ISO image
> is and how to use it under Windows, much less people will download it
> accidentally.
> Let me clarify a few things:
>   * Some people said that it's preferable to download the ISO image if
>     the Internet connection is poor.
>     It depends.  Programs like wget can recover from interrupted
>     connections.  Web browsers are often amazingly stupid in this
>     respect and offer you to start a new download, causing a lot of
>     unnecessary network traffic.
>     The network installer can recover from interrupted internet
>     connections.  I don't see any reason to download one huge file if
>     network performance is poor.
>   * The ISO image contains too much stuff.
>     It provides binaries for all platforms supported by TeX Live, the
>     network installer downloads and installs only the binaries you
>     need.
>   * The ISO image is utterly outdated.
>     Especially if the internet connection is poor, it doesn't make
>     sense to use the ISO image.  You have to update your system after
>     the installation.  This can take an enourmous amount of time.
>     Using the ISO image and updating the installation means that
>     zillions of packages are downloaded twice.
>     The network installer always installs the most recent stuff.
> There are many situations where people think that the ISO image is
> useful.  But if you think twice, you'll recognize that there are much
> better solutions.  TeX Live is extraordinary flexible.  All you have
> to do is to read the documentation.
> What I think is worthwhile is to prevent people from downloading the
> ISO image accidentally.  IMO this can only be accomplished if the web
> page at tug.org provides more information about the ISO image so that
> users recognize that it's easier to use the network installer.  ATM
> people believe that downloading a file and clicking on it is
> sufficient.
> What I find extremely unfortunate is that Martin downloaded the ISO
> image, spent £24.98 for a program which didn't solve the problem,...
> You also said:
>  > Another option: install 7-zip (http://www.7-zip.org/) which lets
>  > you "extract" .iso files (a longer step than just "mounting" them
>  > but works nicely in most cases).
> I didn't know that 7-zip can extract ISO images.  It should be
> mentioned in the documentation.  This information is really helpful in
> order to use ISO images on Windows.
> On the other hand, the network installer works on native Windows, no
> need to install extra software in advance.  One more reason to use the
> network installer...
> Regards,
>   Reinhard
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Reinhard Kotucha Phone: +49-511-3373112 Marschnerstr. 25 D-30167
> Hannover mailto:reinhard.kotucha at web.de
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Microsoft isn't the answer. Microsoft is the question, and the answer is
> NO.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

gilberto dos santos alves
são paulo - sp - brasil

gilberto dos santos alves
são paulo - sp - brasil
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