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</head><body style="font-family: Lucida Sans; font-size: 12px;"
text="#000000"><div style="font-size: 12px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">Thank
you very much for your help.<br>eplain is capable to include some LaTeX
packages, but apparently not those related to fonts.<br>Regards,<br><br>Gérald<br><br><span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a>
a écrit le 27/8/23 à 21:02 :</span><br><blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-fac77592-abf2-4b67-9d88-11c13e84cbb6-1693162949421@3c-app-gmx-bap48"><meta
http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>> My theory is
that it has something to do with the PostScript version of this font
[...]</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It's also possible that something necessary wasn't done with this
font because it was either only intended for use as a textfont, or
because it is rarely used and nobody thought of it, or both. This seems
plausible to me because it's only available at 10pt. Of course, I
might just be missing something here.</div>
<div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 10px
10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 20:37 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "tex-eplain TUG" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>> However it does not seem to work with \vartheta :</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You're right, it doesn't. It works with some characters and macros
and not with others. For example, this works:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>$\gb{\Delta_\mathchar'010}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>However, this doesn't: $\gb{\Delta_\mathchar'020}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It would appear that some of the characters are missing from the
font and that they are being replaced with characters from the default
math font. This doesn't make sense to me because I ran `tex testfont'
on cmmib10 and I can see all of the characters in the table (see
attachment).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This also works: {\gbeight\char35}, but it doesn't help in math
mode. You could put it in an hbox, but that's what we were trying to
avoid.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It seems to affect the lowercase letters. I don't understand
this. It doesn't work with pdftex either.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My theory is that it has something to do with the PostScript
version of this font and the next thing I would test, if I wanted to
test this, which I don't, is to generate the bit-map version and
persuade TeX to load it instead of the PDF version. I've done this
recently for other fonts but I don't remember exactly what I had to do.
I'm not sure whether it was sufficient to have the font files in the
working directory or if I had to change TEXMF.config or whatever that
file is called, or change the TEXMF environment variable. Far better to
ask if somebody knows why some of the characters appear to be missing.
I'm afraid that's the extent of my knowledge on this subject. Of
course, it could be something simpler.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 20:11 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>> \def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is still wrong. This is what it should look like:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>\def\gb{\fam\gbfam\gbten}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You are setting \textfont1, which refers to family 1, not family 9,
and you shouldn't be setting \textfont for any family in the definition
of \gb (my example) or \gp (yours). Nor do I think that you have to
define \gth. \vartheta should work without having to be defined and you
shouldn't need to use an \hbox. That's the whole point of defining a
new family.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think it would be helpful if you worked through my example
carefully and if necessary referred to The TeXbook to understand what it
does.</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 19:57 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">Thanks.<br>
However it does not seem to work with \vartheta :<br>
<br>
\input eplain<br>
<br>
\font\tengp=cmmib10<br>
\newfam\gpfam<br>
\textfont\gpfam=\tengp<br>
\def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}<br>
\def\gth{\hbox{$\gp\vartheta$}}<br>
%$\gth\neq\vartheta$<br>
\bigskip<br>
<br>
\newfam\gbfam<br>
\font\gbten=cmmib10<br>
\font\gbeight=cmmib10 scaled 800<br>
\font\gbseven=cmmib10 scaled 700<br>
\textfont\gbfam=\gbten<br>
\scriptfont\gbfam=\gbeight<br>
\scriptscriptfont\gbfam=\gbseven<br>
\def\gb{\fam\gbfam\gbten}<br>
\def\grth{{\gb\vartheta}}<br>
<br>
$\grth\neq\gth$<br>
<br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a>
a écrit le 27/8/23 à 18:09 :</span>
<blockquote><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>> This is wrong. You're resetting \textfont1. You need to set
\textfont\gpfam.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Like I said, \gbfam and \gbifam (in this case) are numbers:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\tracingonline=1</div>
<div>\showthe\gbifam</div>
<div>\showthe\gbfam</div>
<div> </div>
<div>--></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is TeX, Version 3.141592653 (TeX Live 2022/dev/Debian)
(preloaded format=tex)<br>
(./ttemp.tex<br>
> 8.<br>
l.32 \showthe\gbifam<br>
<br>
? <br>
> 9.<br>
l.34 \showthe\gbfam</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>They are thus family 8 and 9, respectively and \textfont\gbifam and
\textfont\gbfam are equivalent to \textfont8 and \textfont9,
respectively.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 17:48 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return
false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>%% Normal italic:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\gbifam<br>
\font\gbiten=cmmi10<br>
\font\gbieight=cmmi10 scaled 800<br>
\font\gbiseven=cmmi10 scaled 700<br>
\def\gbi{\fam\gbifam\gbiten}</div>
<div>\textfont\gbifam=\gbiten<br>
\scriptfont\gbifam=\gbieight<br>
\scriptscriptfont\gbifam=\gbiseven</div>
<div> </div>
<div>%% Bold italic:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\gbfam<br>
\font\gbten=cmmib10<br>
\font\gbeight=cmmib10 scaled 800<br>
\font\gbseven=cmmib10 scaled 700</div>
<div>\textfont\gbfam=\gbten<br>
\scriptfont\gbfam=\gbeight<br>
\scriptscriptfont\gbfam=\gbseven</div>
<div>\def\gb{\fam\gbfam\gbten}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Normal Italic: $\gbi{\Delta_\Omega}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bold Italic: $\gb{\Delta_\Omega}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\bye<br>
</div>
<div>See ttemp.dvi (attached)</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 17:19 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>> \def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is wrong. You're resetting \textfont1. You need to set
\textfont\gpfam.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you create a new family, you shouldn't need to write macros for
the individual characters. They should be in the proper positions in
the font, if the font is encoded using the conventions of plain TeX.</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 15:44 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return
false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">Thank you.<br>
<br>
Here is indeed a working example<br>
<div style="margin-left: 40.0px;">\input eplain<br>
\font\tengp=cmmib10<br>
\newfam\gpfam<br>
\textfont\gpfam=\tengp<br>
\def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}<br>
\def\gth{\hbox{$\gp\vartheta$}}<br>
$\gth\neq\vartheta$<br>
\end</div>
<br>
However this would require distinct definitions for the same letter in
distinct sizes.<br>
The behavior therefore radically departs from standard use in which you
can do, for instance,<br>
<br>
\font\tenscaln=eusm10 <br>
\font\sevenscaln=eusm10 scaled 700<br>
\newfam\scalnfam\textfont\scalnfam=\tenscaln\scriptfont\scalnfam=\sevenscaln<br>
\def\scaln{\fam\scalnfam\tenscaln}%<br>
\def\scal{\scaln}<br>
\def\A{{\scaln A}}<br>
\def\B{{\scaln B}}<br>
$\A_\B$<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Gérald<br>
<br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a>
a écrit le 27/8/23 à 15:13 :</span>
<blockquote><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>First, you define a new family using \newfam. This takes care of
the problem that Philip brought up, because your new \boldgreek or \bg
or whatever macro will change the family within its scope. I think you
can have 11 families or so and plain tex only uses 7 or something. I
don't remember the details. It would be like this:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\boldgreekfam</div>
<div>\def\boldgreek{\fam\boldgreekfam\tenboldgreek}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam just assigns a number. If you know the number, you could
use it instead of \boldgreekfam, but it's better not to.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Then you set \textfont, \scriptfont and \scriptscriptfont. You
might need to use scaling if this font isn't available in the sizes you
need. </div>
<div>For example, \font\fiveboldgreek=cmboldgreek10 scaled 700.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I haven't tested this, so you may have to fiddle with it and/or
refer to _The TeXbook_ (never a bad idea).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>That is my attempt to answer your question. My opinion is that it
might be difficult to distinguish bold Greek characters in subscripts
from ordinary Greek characters and that \bf and \rm are meant to be the
exceptions rather than the rule. However, to each his/her own.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you have any problems, I'll be happy to try to make a working
example.</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 12:44 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return
false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">So how would it
work with bold greek?<br>
When I tried this I get an error until I insert \hboxes<br>
<br>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a>
a écrit le 27/8/23 à 12:12 :</span>
<blockquote><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>> Can't one design a setting working like \bf or \it ?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sure. This is how \bf is defined in plain.tex:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\bffam \def\bf{\fam\bffam\tenbf} % \bf is family 6<br>
\textfont\bffam=\tenbf \scriptfont\bffam=\sevenbf<br>
\scriptscriptfont\bffam=\fivebf</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August
2023 um 11:41 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Philip Taylor (Hellenic Institute)" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:P.Taylor@Hellenic-Institute.Uk"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:P.Taylor@Hellenic-Institute.Uk';
return false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><P.Taylor@Hellenic-Institute.Uk></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return
false;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">Thanks.<br>
Yes it suffices, but I also need these boldface letters in subscripts.<br>
I am puzzled by the necessity of using \hbox. Can't one design a setting
working like \bf or \it ?<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Gérald<br>
<br>
<span>Philip Taylor (Hellenic Institute) a écrit le 27/8/23 à 11:21 :</span>
<blockquote><div class="moz-cite-prefix">You don't appear to be using <tt><font
size="+1">\gpfam</font></tt>, Gérald — will not the following suffice ?</div>
<p><br>
<tt>\font \tengp = cmmib10</tt><br>
<tt>\def \gp {\textfont 1 = \tengp}</tt><br>
<tt>\def \gth {\hbox {$\gp \vartheta $}}</tt><br>
<tt>$\gth \neq \vartheta $</tt><br>
<tt>\end</tt></p>
<p>--<br>
<i>Philip Taylor</i></p></blockquote>
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