<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>> My theory is that it has something to do with the PostScript version of this font [...]</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It's also possible that something necessary wasn't done with this font because it was either only intended for use as a textfont, or because it is rarely used and nobody thought of it, or both. This seems plausible to me because it's only available at 10pt. Of course, I might just be missing something here.</div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 20:37 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> Laurence.Finston@gmx.net<br/>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "tex-eplain TUG" <tex-eplain@tug.org><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
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<div>> However it does not seem to work with \vartheta :</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You're right, it doesn't. It works with some characters and macros and not with others. For example, this works:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>$\gb{\Delta_\mathchar'010}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>However, this doesn't: $\gb{\Delta_\mathchar'020}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It would appear that some of the characters are missing from the font and that they are being replaced with characters from the default math font. This doesn't make sense to me because I ran `tex testfont' on cmmib10 and I can see all of the characters in the table (see attachment).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This also works: {\gbeight\char35}, but it doesn't help in math mode. You could put it in an hbox, but that's what we were trying to avoid.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It seems to affect the lowercase letters. I don't understand this. It doesn't work with pdftex either.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My theory is that it has something to do with the PostScript version of this font and the next thing I would test, if I wanted to test this, which I don't, is to generate the bit-map version and persuade TeX to load it instead of the PDF version. I've done this recently for other fonts but I don't remember exactly what I had to do. I'm not sure whether it was sufficient to have the font files in the working directory or if I had to change TEXMF.config or whatever that file is called, or change the TEXMF environment variable. Far better to ask if somebody knows why some of the characters appear to be missing. I'm afraid that's the extent of my knowledge on this subject. Of course, it could be something simpler.</div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 20:11 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> Laurence.Finston@gmx.net<br/>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>> \def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is still wrong. This is what it should look like:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>\def\gb{\fam\gbfam\gbten}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You are setting \textfont1, which refers to family 1, not family 9, and you shouldn't be setting \textfont for any family in the definition of \gb (my example) or \gp (yours). Nor do I think that you have to define \gth. \vartheta should work without having to be defined and you shouldn't need to use an \hbox. That's the whole point of defining a new family.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think it would be helpful if you worked through my example carefully and if necessary referred to The TeXbook to understand what it does.</div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 19:57 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr><br/>
<b>An:</b> Laurence.Finston@gmx.net<br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <tex-eplain@tug.org><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">Thanks.<br/>
However it does not seem to work with \vartheta :<br/>
<br/>
\input eplain<br/>
<br/>
\font\tengp=cmmib10<br/>
\newfam\gpfam<br/>
\textfont\gpfam=\tengp<br/>
\def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}<br/>
\def\gth{\hbox{$\gp\vartheta$}}<br/>
%$\gth\neq\vartheta$<br/>
\bigskip<br/>
<br/>
\newfam\gbfam<br/>
\font\gbten=cmmib10<br/>
\font\gbeight=cmmib10 scaled 800<br/>
\font\gbseven=cmmib10 scaled 700<br/>
\textfont\gbfam=\gbten<br/>
\scriptfont\gbfam=\gbeight<br/>
\scriptscriptfont\gbfam=\gbseven<br/>
\def\gb{\fam\gbfam\gbten}<br/>
\def\grth{{\gb\vartheta}}<br/>
<br/>
$\grth\neq\gth$<br/>
<br/>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net'; return false;" target="_blank">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a> a écrit le 27/8/23 à 18:09 :</span>
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<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>> This is wrong. You're resetting \textfont1. You need to set \textfont\gpfam.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Like I said, \gbfam and \gbifam (in this case) are numbers:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\tracingonline=1</div>
<div>\showthe\gbifam</div>
<div>\showthe\gbfam</div>
<div> </div>
<div>--></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is TeX, Version 3.141592653 (TeX Live 2022/dev/Debian) (preloaded format=tex)<br/>
(./ttemp.tex<br/>
> 8.<br/>
l.32 \showthe\gbifam<br/>
<br/>
? <br/>
> 9.<br/>
l.34 \showthe\gbfam</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>They are thus family 8 and 9, respectively and \textfont\gbifam and \textfont\gbfam are equivalent to \textfont8 and \textfont9, respectively.</div>
<div> </div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 17:48 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net'; return false;" target="_blank">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br/>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr'; return false;" target="_blank"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return false;" target="_blank"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>%% Normal italic:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\gbifam<br/>
\font\gbiten=cmmi10<br/>
\font\gbieight=cmmi10 scaled 800<br/>
\font\gbiseven=cmmi10 scaled 700<br/>
\def\gbi{\fam\gbifam\gbiten}</div>
<div>\textfont\gbifam=\gbiten<br/>
\scriptfont\gbifam=\gbieight<br/>
\scriptscriptfont\gbifam=\gbiseven</div>
<div> </div>
<div>%% Bold italic:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\gbfam<br/>
\font\gbten=cmmib10<br/>
\font\gbeight=cmmib10 scaled 800<br/>
\font\gbseven=cmmib10 scaled 700</div>
<div>\textfont\gbfam=\gbten<br/>
\scriptfont\gbfam=\gbeight<br/>
\scriptscriptfont\gbfam=\gbseven</div>
<div>\def\gb{\fam\gbfam\gbten}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Normal Italic: $\gbi{\Delta_\Omega}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bold Italic: $\gb{\Delta_\Omega}$</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\bye<br/>
</div>
<div>See ttemp.dvi (attached)</div>
</div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 17:19 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net'; return false;" target="_blank">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br/>
<b>An:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr'; return false;" target="_blank"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>> \def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is wrong. You're resetting \textfont1. You need to set \textfont\gpfam.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you create a new family, you shouldn't need to write macros for the individual characters. They should be in the proper positions in the font, if the font is encoded using the conventions of plain TeX.</div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 15:44 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr'; return false;" target="_blank"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br/>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net'; return false;" target="_blank">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return false;" target="_blank"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">Thank you.<br/>
<br/>
Here is indeed a working example<br/>
<div style="margin-left: 40.0px;">\input eplain<br/>
\font\tengp=cmmib10<br/>
\newfam\gpfam<br/>
\textfont\gpfam=\tengp<br/>
\def\gp{\fam\gpfam\textfont1=\tengp}<br/>
\def\gth{\hbox{$\gp\vartheta$}}<br/>
$\gth\neq\vartheta$<br/>
\end</div>
<br/>
However this would require distinct definitions for the same letter in distinct sizes.<br/>
The behavior therefore radically departs from standard use in which you can do, for instance,<br/>
<br/>
\font\tenscaln=eusm10 <br/>
\font\sevenscaln=eusm10 scaled 700<br/>
\newfam\scalnfam\textfont\scalnfam=\tenscaln\scriptfont\scalnfam=\sevenscaln<br/>
\def\scaln{\fam\scalnfam\tenscaln}%<br/>
\def\scal{\scaln}<br/>
\def\A{{\scaln A}}<br/>
\def\B{{\scaln B}}<br/>
$\A_\B$<br/>
<br/>
Regards,<br/>
<br/>
Gérald<br/>
<br/>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net'; return false;" target="_blank">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a> a écrit le 27/8/23 à 15:13 :</span>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>First, you define a new family using \newfam. This takes care of the problem that Philip brought up, because your new \boldgreek or \bg or whatever macro will change the family within its scope. I think you can have 11 families or so and plain tex only uses 7 or something. I don't remember the details. It would be like this:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\boldgreekfam</div>
<div>\def\boldgreek{\fam\boldgreekfam\tenboldgreek}</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam just assigns a number. If you know the number, you could use it instead of \boldgreekfam, but it's better not to.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Then you set \textfont, \scriptfont and \scriptscriptfont. You might need to use scaling if this font isn't available in the sizes you need. </div>
<div>For example, \font\fiveboldgreek=cmboldgreek10 scaled 700.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I haven't tested this, so you may have to fiddle with it and/or refer to _The TeXbook_ (never a bad idea).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>That is my attempt to answer your question. My opinion is that it might be difficult to distinguish bold Greek characters in subscripts from ordinary Greek characters and that \bf and \rm are meant to be the exceptions rather than the rule. However, to each his/her own.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you have any problems, I'll be happy to try to make a working example.</div>
<div>
<div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 12:44 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr'; return false;" target="_blank"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br/>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net'; return false;" target="_blank">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return false;" target="_blank"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: Aw: Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">So how would it work with bold greek?<br/>
When I tried this I get an error until I insert \hboxes<br/>
<br/>
<span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Laurence.Finston@gmx.net'; return false;" target="_blank">Laurence.Finston@gmx.net</a> a écrit le 27/8/23 à 12:12 :</span>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>> Can't one design a setting working like \bf or \it ?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sure. This is how \bf is defined in plain.tex:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>\newfam\bffam \def\bf{\fam\bffam\tenbf} % \bf is family 6<br/>
\textfont\bffam=\tenbf \scriptfont\bffam=\sevenbf<br/>
\scriptscriptfont\bffam=\fivebf</div>
<div>
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 27. August 2023 um 11:41 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "Gérald Tenenbaum" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr'; return false;" target="_blank"><gerald.tenenbaum@univ-lorraine.fr></a><br/>
<b>An:</b> "Philip Taylor (Hellenic Institute)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:P.Taylor@Hellenic-Institute.Uk" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:P.Taylor@Hellenic-Institute.Uk'; return false;" target="_blank"><P.Taylor@Hellenic-Institute.Uk></a><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "Eplain" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:tex-eplain@tug.org'; return false;" target="_blank"><tex-eplain@tug.org></a><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [tex-eplain] boldface greek symbols</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: Lucida Sans;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div style="font-size: 12.0px;font-family: Lucida Sans;">Thanks.<br/>
Yes it suffices, but I also need these boldface letters in subscripts.<br/>
I am puzzled by the necessity of using \hbox. Can't one design a setting working like \bf or \it ?<br/>
Regards,<br/>
<br/>
Gérald<br/>
<br/>
<span>Philip Taylor (Hellenic Institute) a écrit le 27/8/23 à 11:21 :</span>
<blockquote>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">You don't appear to be using <tt><font size="+1">\gpfam</font></tt>, Gérald — will not the following suffice ?</div>
<p><br/>
<tt>\font \tengp = cmmib10</tt><br/>
<tt>\def \gp {\textfont 1 = \tengp}</tt><br/>
<tt>\def \gth {\hbox {$\gp \vartheta $}}</tt><br/>
<tt>$\gth \neq \vartheta $</tt><br/>
<tt>\end</tt></p>
<p>--<br/>
<i>Philip Taylor</i></p>
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