[XeTeX] XeTeX 0.4 available

[Ross Moore]

Hi Hans,

On 22/04/2004, at 5:02 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Hi Ross,
>
>> Yes; but in XeTeX there is no such ability yet.
>> XeTeX does not allow you to directly construct PDF coding,
>> and there is no PostScript --> PDF conversion step, to get it that 
>> way.
>
> by reading the docs i feared that already -)
>
> (btw, i still support pdfmarks, but haven't distilled a file in years)
>
> i think the best way to go is to let the xtex dvi/pdf driver support 
> the dvipdfmx specials; that would safe us a lot of trouble and also 
> provide a quite compatible feature set

  dvipdfmx  was quite new at the Hawaii meeting, yes ?
I've not worked with it yet.


>
>> Back to cropping, scaling, etc.
>> These occur in the options to \includegraphics, so are naturally 
>> thought-of
>> as being applicable just to the imported graphic, at least in that 
>> context.
>
> sure, but pdfliterals can do the same in a more general way; so, 
> instead of making graphic placement more powerful by extending its 
> options, i'd go adding pdf litral inclusion; otherwise we're going 
> back in time some 15 years -)

Yeah, I've been made fully aware of this after realising the 
order-dependance
of the options to \includegraphics . It looks as though you can 
construct
various "skew" transformations that cannot even be expressed with the 
options
available to  XeTeX's  \picfile (and \pdffile) commands.



>> But while there is not such a general method, and there may be an 
>> easy way
>> to do these things for single images, then that's the current 
>> question.
>> What we really need to see is documentation on the interfaces that
>> Jonathan is using, so as to find what is easy to implement, and what 
>> is not.
>
> sure, but since i expect an engine to have the more generic options, 
> i'm not going to spoil my macro set / driver concept by using the 
> rather specific for each driver different graphic extensions; i just 
> wait for the generic option then
>
>> But this is going beyond Jonathan's stated aim of being
>>  "simple to use the advanced typography features of OS X"
>>  --- though ultimately we would like to get there.
>
> sure, but we no longer liv ein a text only world, each doc we make 
> today (at pragma) has color, graphics, etc

Now that XeTeX has proved the usefulness of interacting with Quartz
to typeset with some fonts, and include various graphics formats,
then the best way ahead may be to graft those features onto pdfTeX
(when used on a Mac), rather than rework all the other features
into an extended XeTeX.


>
>> Hans, what do you think will be easiest in the short term,
>> and best in the long-term ?
>
> just start with:
>
>   \special{pdf: literal [direct] ...}
>
> or
>
>   \xtxpdfliteral [direct] {....}
>
> because that would already permit much (transformations, color, and 
> graphics); object constructors are next (i can post one feature 
> request per day to keep things going -)
>
>> I think that 'pdfmark' should be do-able, at least for short-term,
>
> not really, interpreting them is no fun and specials are simpler

Yes, but surely this is true only when you have a "call-back" such as
  \pdflastobject  so that you can save the number and use it,
to be referenced while building other objects.

With XeTeX's 2-part structure of
          page-building:  .tex ---> .xdv
then a separate
          PDF encoding:   .xdv ---> .pdf
this is impossible.
  pdfTeX  can do it because it keeps track of the object IDs
while it is interpreting what needs to go on the pages.

The reason 'pdfmark' can cope with this situation is that there
is a mechanism to assign a symbolic ID to an object, and use that
for references to the object. These symbolic IDs get replaced later
when the correct numbers are known --- similar to LaTeX's
\label-\ref mechanism, but using different programs to encode
the symbolic reference, and later do the resolution.


>> and that complete integration with pdfTeX could be a long-term goal.
>
> dvipdfmx special compatibility is enough at the moment

I've not worked with that yet.
How does it cope with PDF objects needing to reference each other ?
It would need to be symbolically, similar to above.


Cheers

	Ross


>
> Hans
> _______________________________________________
> XeTeX mailing list
> postmaster at tug.org
> http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ross Moore                                         ross at maths.mq.edu.au
Mathematics Department                             office: E7A-419
Macquarie University                               tel: +61 +2 9850 8955
Sydney, Australia                                  fax: +61 +2 9850 8114
------------------------------------------------------------------------