From mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com  Sat Sep 18 03:40:49 2010
From: mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com (Mojca Miklavec)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 03:40:49 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] Afrikaans hyphenation patterns
Message-ID: <AANLkTikQY7dCKXjawuOoA5MaC=GnM2vb0Ga4AapRHsKX@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list,

We have added Afrikaans hyphenation patterns (we have a South African
participant at the ConTeXt meeting who had to have documents with long
lists of \hyphenation{...} at the beginning of every document and we
figured out that OOo had patterns for that language). The patterns
were not in the best shape, so any future improvement could/should be
done without worrying about backward compatibility.

Once the new package gets to CTAN, here's the tlpsrc file to be used
(values 2/2 were simply inherited from Dutch without a deeper
thought):
    http://tug.org/svn/texhyphen/trunk/TL/tlpkg/tlpsrc/hyphen-afrikaans.tlpsrc

We would like to ask for some testing before it gets included, in
particular we have not tested the LuaTeX part and if any values of
memory limitations might need to be changed. The patterns are pretty
long.

Mojca and Arthur

From mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com  Sat Sep 18 10:18:49 2010
From: mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com (Mojca Miklavec)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:18:49 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] new website
Message-ID: <AANLkTim2WB4Yw-EbFPnWfxoFfaTdZf5kSGVAVysgPT5R@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list,

during the ConTeXt meeting we have successfully bribed Henning Hraban
Ramm to make us a new webpage for
    http://www.tug.org/tex-hyphen/

I like the design a lot, and I hope that it works well on IE4 :) :) :)
(Seriously - if anyone has problems displaying the page, let me know.)

Thanks a lot to our design wizzard,
    Mojca

From karl at freefriends.org  Sun Sep 19 00:12:36 2010
From: karl at freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 22:12:36 GMT
Subject: [tex-hyphen] new website
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2WB4Yw-EbFPnWfxoFfaTdZf5kSGVAVysgPT5R@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201009182212.o8IMCawt005003@f7.net>

    http://www.tug.org/tex-hyphen/
    (Seriously - if anyone has problems displaying the page, let me know.)

I can see a lot of work went into it, so thanks/congratulations in general.

However, although I don't have a "problem" displaying it, exactly, I
have to report that it is not especially readable or good-looking in my
browser.

- links now seem to be indicated only by a nearly-invisible white underline.
- truncated at the bottom of the window.
- the medium purple background is highly distracting, to my eyes.
- the logo isn't transparent (try
  http://www.tug.org/images/logonavyongreytransp.png, or roll your own).
- uses only about 2/3 of my window.
- the "TeX" logo looks rather spread out, though admittedly it's not
  awful.  Still, logo problems in CSS are so endemic that I find it much
  more plausible to just not even try.  (\LaTeX is even worse.)

Screenshot attached.

Content remarks:

- I strongly advise not having the link to "Live Demo" (inconsistent
capitalization BTW, wrt "Supported languages") until there actually is a
demo.

- hyph-utf8 "maintainers" might be more accurate/less charged than
  "authors".  (http://www.tug.org/tex-hyphen/#introduction)

- can you please add "- TeX Users Group" to the <title>.

Best,
Karl

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From karl at freefriends.org  Sun Sep 19 00:26:37 2010
From: karl at freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 22:26:37 GMT
Subject: [tex-hyphen] Afrikaans hyphenation patterns
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQY7dCKXjawuOoA5MaC=GnM2vb0Ga4AapRHsKX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201009182226.o8IMQbOb007607@f7.net>

    Once the new package gets to CTAN, here's the tlpsrc file to be used
    (values 2/2 were simply inherited from Dutch without a deeper
    thought):

How about asking your South African participant?
Or whoever created the patterns for ooo?

From karl at freefriends.org  Mon Sep 20 01:20:31 2010
From: karl at freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 23:20:31 GMT
Subject: [tex-hyphen] Afrikaans hyphenation patterns
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQY7dCKXjawuOoA5MaC=GnM2vb0Ga4AapRHsKX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201009192320.o8JNKV0w025778@f7.net>

    We would like to ask for some testing before it gets included, 

Wouldn't it be easier, not to say better, to test before releasing?

    in particular we have not tested the LuaTeX part 

Well, you know how to test luatex better than I do.

Obviously the formats rebuild, since the patterns aren't in the formats.
As for whether the af patterns actually work with lualatex or context or
whatever, well, I don't have a test document at hand, so I guess it'll
be up to the user population to discover.

    and if any values of memory limitations might need to be changed. 

I could rebuild pdflatex.fmt with af included, so fortunately not, it
seems.

So ... I committed the new version.  Thanks.

karl

From preining at logic.at  Mon Sep 20 16:00:53 2010
From: preining at logic.at (Norbert Preining)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:00:53 +0900
Subject: [tex-hyphen] Afrikaans hyphenation patterns
In-Reply-To: <201009192320.o8JNKV0w025778@f7.net>
References: <AANLkTikQY7dCKXjawuOoA5MaC=GnM2vb0Ga4AapRHsKX@mail.gmail.com>
	<201009192320.o8JNKV0w025778@f7.net>
Message-ID: <20100920140053.GN7287@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at>

On So, 19 Sep 2010, Karl Berry wrote:
> So ... I committed the new version.  Thanks.

Do I have to do anything now? Include the .tlpsrc file? Anything
necessary?

(Sorry was off for mountaineering)

Best wishes

Norbert
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Preining            preining@{jaist.ac.jp, logic.at, debian.org}
JAIST, Japan                                 TeX Live & Debian Developer
DSA: 0x09C5B094   fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76  A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GLORORUM (n.)
One who takes pleasure in informing others about their bowel
movements.
			--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff

From mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com  Mon Sep 20 16:02:45 2010
From: mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com (Mojca Miklavec)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:02:45 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] Afrikaans hyphenation patterns
In-Reply-To: <201009192320.o8JNKV0w025778@f7.net>
References: <AANLkTikQY7dCKXjawuOoA5MaC=GnM2vb0Ga4AapRHsKX@mail.gmail.com>
	<201009192320.o8JNKV0w025778@f7.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik9QCEqAq5+t6DJ4KcTDygKHRa_CM7w=hJP1CUD@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 01:20, Karl Berry wrote:
> ? ?Once the new package gets to CTAN, here's the tlpsrc file to be used
> ? ?(values 2/2 were simply inherited from Dutch without a deeper
> ? ?thought):
>
> How about asking your South African participant?
> Or whoever created the patterns for ooo?

The first one and the author of new patterns (ongoing project, not
finished yet) both confirmed 2/2. The author of ooo patterns didn't
respond yet.

> ? ?We would like to ask for some testing before it gets included,
>
> Wouldn't it be easier, not to say better, to test before releasing?

Yes, I completely agree.
I need to figure out how to properly test for TeX Live. (Postponing
the task to late October unless Arthur wants to work on it earlier.)
Back in 2008 we simply "hired" Norbert to test for any problems in TL.

> ? ?in particular we have not tested the LuaTeX part
>
> Well, you know how to test luatex better than I do.

(I need to consult the LuaTeX part of our team. If nothing else, we
should create an automated test suite.)

> ? ?and if any values of memory limitations might need to be changed.
>
> I could rebuild pdflatex.fmt with af included, so fortunately not, it
> seems.

I need to remove MacTeX 2009 and install MacTeX 2010. I have a minimal
TL 2010 installation, but using that one is not sufficient to test for
sufficient memory.

We do run the basic tests that usually reveal duplicated patterns and
other most obvious problems that would break the format building.

> So ... I committed the new version. ?Thanks.

Thanks a lot.

Mojca


From mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com  Mon Sep 20 17:45:22 2010
From: mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com (Mojca Miklavec)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:45:22 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] Belarussian
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxK6DEJqCiL3ObHK5TD=x3wXdcWi-=cS9xAVci@mail.gmail.com>

After seing:
    http://code.google.com/p/hyphenator/source/browse/trunk/patterns/be.js
I have discovered the following documents:
    http://alt.linux.kiev.ua/srpm/tetex/patches/8
    http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/dict-be-classic
    http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/dict-be-official
    http://tldp.org/HOWTO/pdf/Belarusian-HOWTO.pdf

We could contact Aleksey Novodvorsky (as well as authors of patterns)
and add Belarussian support to TeX. I need to catch some deadlines
first, but I can come back to the issue in a month or so.

Mojca

From oinos at web.de  Tue Sep 21 21:29:28 2010
From: oinos at web.de (=?UTF-8?B?UGFibG8gUm9kcsOtZ3Vleg==?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:29:28 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
Message-ID: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>

Hi there,

I have just read in the latest version of hyph-utf8 lists ancient Greek 
in the supported languages.

Would you be so kind to show me how the following sample could work in 
LuaLaTeX?

\documentclass{minimal}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{????????? ???????}
\end{document}

Thanks for your help,


Pablo

From martin at oneiros.de  Tue Sep 21 21:51:17 2010
From: martin at oneiros.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martin_Schr=F6der?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:51:17 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] new website
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2WB4Yw-EbFPnWfxoFfaTdZf5kSGVAVysgPT5R@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim2WB4Yw-EbFPnWfxoFfaTdZf5kSGVAVysgPT5R@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=4ZyLXkhn1ngd8UOBnSc4P=-F-+1TFsEgPpcT-@mail.gmail.com>

2010/9/18 Mojca Miklavec <mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com>:
> I like the design a lot, and I hope that it works well on IE4 :) :) :)
> (Seriously - if anyone has problems displaying the page, let me know.)

Many thanks!

But
- the font looks very compressed with FF3.6.10 on OpenSUSE 11.2
- the page doesn't validate: http://preview.tinyurl.com/2cfkjsu

Best
   Martin

From arthur.reutenauer at normalesup.org  Tue Sep 21 21:56:21 2010
From: arthur.reutenauer at normalesup.org (Arthur Reutenauer)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:56:21 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>
Message-ID: <20100921195621.GB30181@phare.normalesup.org>

	Hello Pablo,

> Would you be so kind to show me how the following sample could work in  
> LuaLaTeX?

  It couldn't.  You need to tell LaTeX to load the patterns, the most
straightforward way is by adding Babel with the ancientgreek option:

> \documentclass{minimal}

\usepackage[ancientgreek]{babel}

> \begin{document}
> \showhyphens{????????? ???????}
> \end{document}

  (untested)

	Arthur

From oinos at web.de  Tue Sep 21 23:21:29 2010
From: oinos at web.de (=?UTF-8?B?UGFibG8gUm9kcsOtZ3Vleg==?=)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:21:29 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <20100921195621.GB30181@phare.normalesup.org>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>
	<20100921195621.GB30181@phare.normalesup.org>
Message-ID: <4C9921D9.7050905@web.de>

On 09/21/2010 09:56 PM, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> 	Hello Pablo,
>
>> Would you be so kind to show me how the following sample could work in
>> LuaLaTeX?
>
>    It couldn't.  You need to tell LaTeX to load the patterns, the most
> straightforward way is by adding Babel with the ancientgreek option:
>
>> \documentclass{minimal}
>
> \usepackage[ancientgreek]{babel}

Thanks for your help, Arthur.

I'm afraid that ancientgreek is not a language defined by babel, only 
hyphenation patterns loaded by babel itself.

But the code modified from 
http://tug.org/pipermail/luatex/2010-June/001603.html:

\documentclass[12pt]{article}
\usepackage[a5paper]{geometry}
\usepackage[greek]{babel}
\usepackage{ifluatex}
\usepackage{ifxetex}
\ifluatex
\usepackage{fontspec}
\setmainfont{Theano Didot}
\renewcommand*{\greektext}{}
\else
\ifxetex
\usepackage{xltxtra}
\setmainfont{Theano Didot}
\renewcommand*{\greektext}{}
\else
\usepackage[utf8x]{inputenc}
\fi
\fi
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{??????}
? ????????  ?????  ???????????  ?? ??????????: ?????????  ???  ???? 
????????  ?????  ?????  ? ?????  ??????  ????  ???????  ????  ????????? 
  ???  ????????  ?????????  ???????????: ???  ???  ??????  ??????  ???? 
  ??????????  ??????: ??????  ???  ????? ????? ??? ????????? ??? ??????? 
????? ??? ???????????? ??? ?????????? ???????????.
\end{document}

is hyphenated right with latex, pdflatex, xelatex, but not with LuaLaTeX.

If you follow the thread of the message above, it seems that something 
is missing at the engine level (sorry, but this is all Greek to me). And 
there seems to be a bug that needs to be fixed before in LuaTeX 
(http://tug.org/pipermail/luatex/2010-June/001609.html points to a 
LuaTeX bug, but requires registration).

Am I missing something or does Lua(La)TeX need improvements to hyphenate 
Greek?

Thanks for your help,


Pablo

From pragma at wxs.nl  Tue Sep 21 23:39:54 2010
From: pragma at wxs.nl (Hans Hagen)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:39:54 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <4C9921D9.7050905@web.de>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>	<20100921195621.GB30181@phare.normalesup.org>
	<4C9921D9.7050905@web.de>
Message-ID: <4C99262A.2040302@wxs.nl>

On 21-9-2010 11:21, Pablo Rodr?guez wrote:

> I'm afraid that ancientgreek is not a language defined by babel, only
> hyphenation patterns loaded by babel itself.

In that case, you'd best contact the babel maintainers (if babel deals 
with luatex at all).

> is hyphenated right with latex, pdflatex, xelatex, but not with LuaLaTeX.

\setupbodyfont[dejavu] \mainlanguage[agr]

\starttext

? ????????  ?????  ???????????  ?? ??????????: ?????????  ???  ???? 
????????  ?????  ?????  ? ?????  ??????  ????  ???????  ????  ????????? 
  ???  ????????  ?????????  ???????????: ???  ???  ??????  ??????  ???? 
  ??????????  ??????: ??????  ???  ????? ????? ??? ????????? ??? ??????? 
????? ??? ???????????? ??? ?????????? ???????????.

\stoptext

This hyphenates quite okay in ConTeXt so it is most likely a lualatex 
problem then and not an engine one.

> Am I missing something or does Lua(La)TeX need improvements to hyphenate
> Greek?

Probably. This list is mostly about the patterns themselves and not 
about how to use them so best ask on the lists related to the tex 
machinery that you use.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

From mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com  Thu Sep 23 12:22:02 2010
From: mojca.miklavec.lists at gmail.com (Mojca Miklavec)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:22:02 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikynFqariCxNF1=VDRHjJ8xjTOGcD1mXip0th54@mail.gmail.com>

2010/9/21 Pablo Rodr?guez wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I have just read in the latest version of hyph-utf8 lists ancient Greek in
> the supported languages.

It's been there since the beginning (since the existence of hyph-utf8).

> Would you be so kind to show me how the following sample could work in
> LuaLaTeX?
>
> \documentclass{minimal}
> \begin{document}
> \showhyphens{????????? ???????}
> \end{document}

Some people would probably know a more precise answer, but just to
stress out a few problematic points:

1.) It would help a lot if polyglossia was ported to LuaLaTeX. At the
moment it only works with XeLaTeX, so you would need to load the
language manually (I should probably know how to do it, but I didn't
dive into details yet; I believe we even have some code in repository
that does that). Maybe somebody else could answer you.

2.) In LuaTeX and LuaLaTeX catcodes are not being properly set for
anything else but English alphabet.

Thus it makes more sense to discuss any further details with the
lualatex team which should be able to address both of the above
points. They are aware of them and are trying to find the best
solution for the second one.

If you really need any kind of solution as soon as possible, let us
know; we can probably come up with one. Otherwise the issue is likely
to be resolved automatically once the two issues above are addressed.

Mojca


From arthur.reutenauer at normalesup.org  Thu Sep 23 14:03:37 2010
From: arthur.reutenauer at normalesup.org (Arthur Reutenauer)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:03:37 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikynFqariCxNF1=VDRHjJ8xjTOGcD1mXip0th54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>
	<AANLkTikynFqariCxNF1=VDRHjJ8xjTOGcD1mXip0th54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100923120337.GC28956@phare.normalesup.org>

	Hello Pablo,

> If you really need any kind of solution as soon as possible, let us
> know; we can probably come up with one. Otherwise the issue is likely
> to be resolved automatically once the two issues above are addressed.

  What Mojca says is that there are a couple of technical issues that
explain the problem, and that we actually are discussing them right now.
It might be solved in the coming months, but certainly not next week,
although we can provide you with a temporary solution if you need one
right now.

	Arthur

From oinos at web.de  Thu Sep 23 17:12:40 2010
From: oinos at web.de (=?UTF-8?B?UGFibG8gUm9kcsOtZ3Vleg==?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:12:40 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikynFqariCxNF1=VDRHjJ8xjTOGcD1mXip0th54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>
	<AANLkTikynFqariCxNF1=VDRHjJ8xjTOGcD1mXip0th54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C9B6E68.3060803@web.de>

On 09/23/2010 12:22 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 2010/9/21 Pablo Rodr?guez wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I have just read in the latest version of hyph-utf8 lists ancient Greek in
>> the supported languages.
>
> It's been there since the beginning (since the existence of hyph-utf8).

Thanks for your reply, Arthur.

But somehow LuaTeX catcodes prevent it from working, don't they?.

>> Would you be so kind to show me how the following sample could work in
>> LuaLaTeX?
>>
>> \documentclass{minimal}
>> \begin{document}
>> \showhyphens{????????? ???????}
>> \end{document}
>
> Some people would probably know a more precise answer, but just to
> stress out a few problematic points:
>
> 1.) It would help a lot if polyglossia was ported to LuaLaTeX. At the
> moment it only works with XeLaTeX, so you would need to load the
> language manually (I should probably know how to do it, but I didn't
> dive into details yet; I believe we even have some code in repository
> that does that). Maybe somebody else could answer you.

Even if ported to LuaLaTeX, polyglossia wouldn't work if catcodes aren't 
properly set, would it?

Many thanks for your reply,


Pablo

From oinos at web.de  Thu Sep 23 17:17:03 2010
From: oinos at web.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Rodr=EDguez?=)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:17:03 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <20100923120337.GC28956@phare.normalesup.org>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>	<AANLkTikynFqariCxNF1=VDRHjJ8xjTOGcD1mXip0th54@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100923120337.GC28956@phare.normalesup.org>
Message-ID: <4C9B6F6F.9030104@web.de>

On 09/23/2010 02:03 PM, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> 	Hello Pablo,
>
>> If you really need any kind of solution as soon as possible, let us
>> know; we can probably come up with one. Otherwise the issue is likely
>> to be resolved automatically once the two issues above are addressed.
>
>    What Mojca says is that there are a couple of technical issues that
> explain the problem, and that we actually are discussing them right now.
> It might be solved in the coming months, but certainly not next week,
> although we can provide you with a temporary solution if you need one
> right now.

Thanks for your reply, Arthur.

I'm not in a hurry and waiting is fine for me.

It would be great if you could fix this before December 2010 (but this 
is no deadline for me).

Thanks again,


Pablo

From pragma at wxs.nl  Thu Sep 23 18:19:12 2010
From: pragma at wxs.nl (Hans Hagen)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:19:12 +0200
Subject: [tex-hyphen] hyphenating ancient Greek with LuaLaTeX
In-Reply-To: <4C9B6E68.3060803@web.de>
References: <4C990798.7060607@web.de>	<AANLkTikynFqariCxNF1=VDRHjJ8xjTOGcD1mXip0th54@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C9B6E68.3060803@web.de>
Message-ID: <4C9B7E00.1000907@wxs.nl>

On 23-9-2010 5:12, Pablo Rodr?guez wrote:

> Even if ported to LuaLaTeX, polyglossia wouldn't work if catcodes aren't
> properly set, would it?

sure but that is up to the macro package and not to the engine

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------